The WT misleadership damaged the organization.
Ray Franz wrote a couple books. Bill has yet to write one but I tend to think he will. Should be interesting!
nancee park
JoinedPosts by nancee park
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59
Bill Bowen: a 'burial' ONLY for those who can read
by Focus inthe fleabites received for my speaking the absolute truth, almost entirely free from speculation, in:.
the thread found by clicking here would be hilarious if the matter at hand was not so serious.
i guess the biters generally display the poor reading and reasoning powers, and the huge desire to hero-worship ("my jehovah can beat up your jesus") that got so many embroiled in the cult of lies in the first place.... .
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? for Nancee Park
by Rado Vleugel inyou posted that the watchtower closed down the jahchristian website.
my question is: do you really believe that the watchtower is behind this shutting down?
or is this just sensationalism or a form of persecution mania?.
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nancee park
You two are definitely Watchtower trolls. Rado isn't but you are. Keep motivating.
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? for Nancee Park
by Rado Vleugel inyou posted that the watchtower closed down the jahchristian website.
my question is: do you really believe that the watchtower is behind this shutting down?
or is this just sensationalism or a form of persecution mania?.
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nancee park
Did I say I had "absolute" proof? Don't try to put words in my mouth. No one was one the list who could not simply click a drop link and be dropped. Those who said to the contrary never read the invitation they got. In the invitation it said they only had to click that they were not interested. I do believe the WTS probably did tell yahoo to destroy acessibility and it is an interesting coicidence that Kent Steinhaug's voice is no longer available either. Lecture yourself. Free Christians is a fellowshipping movement that will outlast you too.
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JW Elder convicted of defrauding church members
by Rado Vleugel ina jw elder was convicted of defrauding elderly and financially unsophisticated congregation members and others out of millions of dollars!.
read the whole story on http://www.watchtowerinformationservice.org.
rado vleugel.
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nancee park
The picture of the guy behind bars though is new and very very telling at that. Also there were a few new details Thanks, Rado!
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Kent Steinhaug?
by Rado Vleugel inkent told me a few months ago he was planning to retire from his work on exposing the wts.
his website watchtower.observer.org isnt updated anymore.. .
i have mailed him several times, but i didnt get any response.. .
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nancee park
I believe he said Jan Haugland would run it for him for a while.
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Ray Franz -some personal recollections.
by Gilgamesh inthis is my first post.
please forgive its length, its bad timing, its preachiness, its prejudices, etc.
it's just one more opinion that i feel obligated to add.
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nancee park
If a woman says "my husband told me he commited adultery" WTS says that's Witness #1
If an elder says "the woman who said this is credible" WTS says he counts as Witness #2
Yet WTS won't count a pedophile victims testimony for Witness #1 and an elder's witness that the victim is truthful as Witness #2.
Why?
Maybe Ted Jarasc and his old boy buddies would like to comment? Chickens CTT (Covering Their Tails)?
Edited by - nancee park on 1 November 2002 18:42:17
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Bill Bowen's unfortunate attack
by Jim Penton inlike carl olof jonsson, this is the first time i have ever written to this forum.
i have decided to do so, however, because i am saddened at what bill bowen has chosen to do in reference to ray franz.
let me say that i given bill full marks for publicizing an issue child abuse and the watchtower cover up of it and for taking a stand that has cost him a great deal personally.
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nancee park
In the following Jim Penton's statements are in plain type while the reply by ourselves as truly Free Christians appears in red:
I refuse to get carried away with the suggestion that every charge made against the Watchtower Society, Witness elders, or individual Witnesses is valid.
Many of the "charges" are correct as proved by the names of elders and ministerial servants already sent to prison and we continue hearing of trials under way or headed there. No one said "EVER" charge would be valid and nor did Bill or any of us say every charge is but if 99.9% or 89.9% rather than 100% still a SIGNIFICANT number are.
Why do I mention this? Because, while many of the religions called cults are quite dangerous and deserve to be criticized (and in some cases prosecuted), the anti-cult movement became overly zealous and has become a great danger to civil liberties.... T here have been far too many cases of false accusation of child abuse.
And there have been many that are absolutely correct and as proved in court.
But curiously, the Society (while throwing almost every other aspect of biblical fairness out the window) did preserve, in theory if not in practice, the two-witness rule. So I am hesitant to see that aspect of its policy attacked.
The "Society," as you noteably choose to courteously term Watchtower cult misleadership, counts a womans who testifies that her husband confessed adultery as ONE witness and counts any elder who testifies that she is a credible witness as a SECOND witness but yet does not count as two witnesses the testimony of a victim and then an elder testifying to her veracity! This was the sort of thing Bill brought up. He did not as you insinuate say it is not good to have more than one witness. Never, never ever.
Now, specifically, let me address some of the charges Bill Bowen has made against Ray Franz. He asserts that there was evidence of child abuse with the Watchtower Society when Ray was on the Governing Body. Perhaps so. However, does that prove that Ray is lying when he says that the issue never came before the Governing Body when he was on it. Not at all. I attempted to do research at the Brooklyn Bethel, the Canadian, British and French Bethels when I was working on my history of the Witnesses in Canada and know that, frequently, the Watchtowers right hand doesnt know what its left hand is doing. The Watchtower is a great bureaucracy in which much information is often lost in the shuffle. Therefore, knowing Ray Franz as I do, I believe him.
Where do you get that Bill said Ray "lied". That is what someone has told you perhaps. Bill has said Ray would have known about it but chose not to speak out about it. And that is fact. You yourself weakly but clearly say "Perhaps so" as to Ray's having been on the Gov Body. Your left hand-right hand analogy is good and it is possible Ray somehow did not know of the pedophilia and other molestation by Gov Body members on down right into congregations. But here's the point: NOW that Ray is aware of the problem he has the opportunity to speak up forcefully but he does not - and Bill Bowen has rightly noted this although being willing to let the matter go in consideration of possible mitigating factors we are not all privy to such as Watchtower holding trumpted up dirt over Ray's head.
Furthermore, I am upset at Bills unhistorical approach to the past. ... As someone who served as a servant among Jehovahs Witnesses from 1953 to 1972 and as an elder thereafter until I broke with the Witnesses in 1980, never once did I run into a case of child abuse; and I served as servant or elder in four American states, Puerto Rico, Alberta Canada, and Spain.
This means nothing. No one has charged you yourself with deliberately not reporting a case. But you need to be aware of the fact that since 1980 the powers of those at the top in the hierarchy on down have increased with any checks or balances, thus increasing both the likelihood for and the actual incidence of pedophilia and other crimes, again as attested to by those now going serving prison time and enroute there.
The fact is that we were not very aware of child abuse in earlier years, any more than we were aware of incest or a lot of sexual practices that almost everyone seems to know about today. Among other things, very few older Witnesses or even middle aged ones, knew about such things as oral and anal intercourse until the Watchtower decided that it had to educate us about them. We were babes to such badness, for the world was not so sex mad and violence mad as it is today.
Granted. But now that people are so informed, they do well to speak up, do they not!
On Silentlambs, Bill presents a lot of what he regards as evidence of Witness child abuse. No doubt that there is basis to many of the allegations presented there, but allegations remain allegations until proven in courts of law.
You're ducking, ignoring that there are actual flesh-and-blood convicted criminals who were elders and ministerial servants, that the same unbalanced unchecked situation still exists.
Bill seems to think that Jehovahs Witnesses are more guilty of child sexual abuse than members of other religions. I doubt that.
He did not say that. Let it be said that it is NOT JWs themselves as individuals who are under fire now from the media, the courts and police but it is the MISLEADERSHIP over them.
Finally, let me say a few things about Bills use of language. I dont like the way he has referred to Rays recent statement. His categorization of Rays remarks was less than gentlemanly and his use of the letters c.y.a., which I take to mean cover your ass, was simply crude.
If you had heard 50,000 victims of pedophilia over Bill's 1 877-WT-ABUSE toll free number as he and his wife have you might have used cya or a similar expression. Why not interpret his expressions of concern as expressions of concern rightly delivered rather than "crude" as you chose to put it. Further, how do you know Ray Franz is not c.h.a.-ing? How do we know You are not c.h.a.-ing?
Unfortunately, this whole affair has not been healthy or upbuilding, and if Bill thinks he is going to gain much by attacking a man who has been responsible for the liberation of thousands of Jehovahs Witnesses, he should think again. Whether Ray was right, wrong or indifferent to the issue at hand, there is no valid reason to attack him.
Bill has a right to criticise if he wishes, after all that's what you're doing here right now yourself. Criticising silence on this important issue is rightly done and fair. Let us note that Ray Franz, whom you trumpet as a great liberator also wrote "The Truth That Leads To Everlasting Life" book which put millions into chains although after disfellowshipped his C of C book helped release a portion of those whom it had enslaved as they had thought that it really did tell the truth. Ray Franz's still staying silent on the pedophile issue is Wrong although again he deserves commendation for having also written C of C and In Search Of Christian Freedom.
Bill Bowen did not make a huge attack on Ray Franz any more than this posting is doing so. Rather than aimed at Ray Franz it is aimed at your posting here. However Ray Franz's silence is not positive, although possibly understandable, as said, for reasons best known to himself. It is a shame he also very noticeably did not seek to field any viable alternative to Watchtower cultism to free more JWs from it.
Both Watchtower and the other groups that call themselves "the Bible Students" are cults, paying only lip service to Christian freedom. You yourself are from a family of Bible Students, Jim Penton, and I have no idea if you still are or not, but regardless your verbosity here is wholly misplaced.
Long live the real "Free Christians" movement by whatever name it may go.
Edited by - nancee park on 1 November 2002 17:54:9
Edited by - nancee park on 1 November 2002 17:55:9
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I have new neighbors
by wasasister inthe nice lady living next door to me lost her husband last year and finally decided to move in with relatives.
although we only had a nodding acquaintance, i was sorry to see her go.
the "for sale" sign did not stay up long.
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nancee park
FOR "DEPROGRAMMING" FRIENDS AND FAMILY MEMBERS AND MISINFORMED JW'S LIVING NEXT DOOR:
ALTHOUGH THERE ARE NICE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES (JWs), members of the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society (WTS) over them, including currently alleged pedophile Ted Jarasz, and local WTS elders cover up child molestation, let JW pedophiles go door-to-door as proved at http://www.silentlambs.org or phone toll-free 1 877-WT-ABUSE, also had a secret 10 year liason with the UN, misteach about things like holidays etc.
To begin here's a UK WTS elder handcuffed for prison because a pedophile: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/england/newsid_2123000/2123546.stm
In fact Pat Garza has openly alleged she was raped by WTS Governing Body member Ted Jarasz (nicknamed "the Boss" at Bethel) in Los Angeles when he was a JW District Overseer. Leaks state 23,000+ JW pedophiles are on file at WTS Bethel headquarters in Brooklyn, New York (USA), most unrevealed to police despite Romans 13:1. He did not deny it but stayed silent. Sources also allege WTS Governing Body member Leo Greenlees in the 1980s was a pedophile: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=5466&site=3
In October 2002 five WTS Gov Body members were offically alleged as pedophiles and summoned for a judicial hearing by silentlambs.org. Ministerial Servant/Elder pedophiles so far convicted by regular courts include Gregory Blackstone at Hollis, New Hampshire; Larry Baker at Augusta, Maine; Tim Gardner at Richmond, Missouri; Manual Beliz at Othello, WA; others in the UK, France, Norway, Australia etc
WTS Awake and Watchtower magazines and elders say God opposes the UN but, until exposed, in 1991-2001 WTS was secretly a formal UN associate (Non-Governmental Organization) not just to use the UN's library as proved if you read the Nov 22, 1998 Awake magazine and use Search at the top at jehovahs-witness.org with "UN" or "U.N." Besides, the U.N. does not even require a group to become an official associate group in order to get a card to use its library! After this was publicized on the internet the official U.N. ties were cut but not all unofficial ties: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=34436&site=3
Christ said families would be split by those doing right and those doing wrong but WTS has formal Judicial Committees destroying families via numerous formal renderings of disfellowshipment (severe shunning). 1 Cor 6:1 only says judge "trivial" things as in business, James 2:4-13 calls judging harmful, and Paul says the "majority" (2 Cor 2:6) followed his advice to shun a wrongdoer, meaning a Minority chose not to and yet he nowhere condemns them.
Acts 15:20 says abstain from blood but 1 Sam 14:32-5 says Saul's army ate unBLED meat to not starve and no verses show God not forgiving them. Christ says God also forgave David's eating temple holy bread and that God wants Mercy Not Sacrifice. (Mt 12) The May 22, 1994 Awake tells of 26 JW kids who died without transfusions, and by common sense in massive bleeding as in car wrecks blood expanders won't save lives http://www.ajwrb.org. About 3 JWs die daily earthwide from the unscriptural policy! (Blood On The Altar by David Reed) Yet most normal identical twins transfuse whole blood to each other through a shared placenta and childrens' whole blood is sometimes found in mothers years after birth.
WTS says Christ was likely born about Oct 2, so why ignore counting back 9 months for normal conception or genetic-level birth means he was born in late December? Why insist Christmas is from the pagan Saturnalia when John 10:22-3 says Christ also celebrated the Festival of Dedication or Lights, i.e. Hannukah, which first began Dec 25 but has varied since because lunar-based? Job 1:3, 3:1-3 show Job's kids celebrated birthdays if you read all 3 verses to see day of birth is meant. At Luke 2 angels themselves celebrated Christ's birth. Santa is from Saint Nicholas, an actual red-robed Christian gift-giving elder of the Middle Ages, not a wizard or pagan god. The word Easter may as easily be from the Anglo-Saxon word eastern (Christianity came from East of England) as from the goddess Eastre, the eggs as likely from the Jewish passover egg as from paganry, common sense saying early Christians more likely using eggs and rabbits to symbolize the hope for new life by resurrection than as vesiges of pagan fertility or sex rites!
Halloween came from All Hallows (Holy Ones/Saints) Evening when parents had children dress as saints to encourage them to be good, the normally harmless pranks coming from Ireland where maybe taken from pagans even as wedding rings, names of days, months, some Christian names in the Bible like Apollos and Jason possibly also came from pagans. Why does WTS call compromises holidays that attacked and replaced paganisms especially since Colossians 2:16 says let none judge you about a holiday or Sabbaths? WTS calls a cross a repugnant murder weapon but Paul said boast in it as a symbol of resurrection over death. (Ga 6:14, 1Cor 1:17-18) They say it was a stake but human remains and inscriptions show archaeologists the stauros was a cross not stake, Dr F Zugibe's research shows suffocation would be in minutes if on a stake but in hours if on outstretched cross per Lu 23:44 and Mat 27:45-6, and the word stauros can mean not just stake but cross.
There are countless views on the trinity concept, with almost only the United Pentecostals and a few related groups praying straight to and teaching Jesus is God Almighty (Jehovah) Himself-- the modalism view. Yet WTS says the Trinity is believing Father, Son, Spirit are one "identical" person and falsely say most all Protestant and Catholic churches teach that. The fact is that most all Protestant and Catholic groups accept the trinity idea as being three totally different entities or persons, always from when time started forming one "Godship" just as Romans 1:20 says. (Read It) One illustration is that the Son and Spirit share inherited age, power, knowledge from God remindful of how an acorn may be only one day old but also by its genes share the oak tree's age, capacity and information! Three different entities but one in age, power and knowledge who have always formed one God Almighty or Godship.
Members are told report on each other although the Bible condemns busy-bodying. Nor are regular JWs allowed to read Judicial Committee "sin files" on themselves, many not knowing they exist often with misinformation and kept at Brooklyn's Bethel headquarters even if destroyed locally after seven years. Page 232 in the Insight book shows a picture of the Pay Attention To Yourselves And All The Flock book that elders have but do not allow non-elders to read. Page 302 in the Daniel book and pages 88 and 651 in the Proclaimers book show photos of the Knights Templar swords and the cross-with-crown-and-wreath used by Masons who sometimes use "Theocratic Warfare" tactics to change members' personalities on early WTS literature. Not surprisingly with the pedophile and other scandals, many good JWs have also complained of visual and electronic spying and harassment, including physically! Some old WT books also have the winged sun god Ra on front covers - never a Christian symbol.
Many Jehovah's Witnesses staying JWs are cutting time and money given the WTS which is declared "apostate" for causing divisions besides having endangered children, having the secret U.N. liason etc. By Oct 2002 950+ exJWs had registered for in-person meetings, ( http://exjw.meetup.com/ ), many enjoyed a newsletter from the "Free Christians" fellowship of exJWs and friends which offers unity from love or friendship that surpasses forced sameness of beliefs as well as encourages those interested to organize independent Bible Study groups (Col 3:14, click on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jahchristian/ ). Others have joined moderate Baptists, nondenoms etc.
This "Liberator" was written out of concern for JW family members and friends as well as the public's - yours too! Please help out silentlambs.org (1 877-WT-ABUSE) in fighting for the children by making and distributing more copies today! -
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The Bill & Ray Show
by MYOHNSEPH indoes anyone know if the bill & ray show is being looked at by a major network?
i think it would go over great on fox!
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nancee park
Watchtower is The Cult, not those opposing its child molestation policy and other evils.
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Required reading when exiting the JWs
by MegaDude inpost the books you think should be required reading for anyone leaving the jws: .
mine are, .
apocalypse delayed by jim penton -- a historical overview of the jws and their doctrine .
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nancee park
This is far shorter than a book but covers a whole lot of the issues and teachings:
ALTHOUGH THERE ARE NICE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES (JWs), members of the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society (WTS) over them, including currently alleged pedophile Ted Jarasz, and local WTS elders cover up child molestation, let JW pedophiles go door-to-door as proved at http://www.silentlambs.org or phone toll-free 1 877-WT-ABUSE, also had a secret 10 year liason with the UN, misteach about things like holidays etc.
To begin here's a UK WTS elder handcuffed for prison because a pedophile:http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/england/newsid_2123000/2123546.stm
In fact Pat Garza has openly alleged she was raped by WTS Governing Body member Ted Jarasz (nicknamed "the Boss" at Bethel) in Los Angeles when he was a JW District Overseer. Leaks state 23,000+ JW pedophiles are on file at WTS Bethel headquarters in Brooklyn, New York (USA), most unrevealed to police despite Romans 13:1. He did not deny it but stayed silent. Sources also allege WTS Governing Body member Leo Greenlees in the 1980s was a pedophile:http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=5466&site=3
In October 2002 five WTS Gov Body members were offically alleged as pedophiles and summoned for a judicial hearing by silentlambs.org. Ministerial Servant/Elder pedophiles so far convicted by regular courts include Gregory Blackstone at Hollis, New Hampshire; Larry Baker at Augusta, Maine; Tim Gardner at Richmond, Missouri; Manual Beliz at Othello, WA; others in the UK, France, Norway, Australia etc
WTS Awake and Watchtower magazines and elders say God opposes the UN but, until exposed, in 1991-2001 WTS was secretly a formal UN associate (Non-Governmental Organization) not just to use the UN's library as proved if you read the Nov 22, 1998 Awake magazine and use Search at the top at jehovahs-witness.org with "UN" or "U.N." Besides, the U.N. does not even require a group to become an official associate group in order to get a card to use its library! After this was publicized on the internet the official U.N. ties were cut but not all unofficial ties: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=34436&site=3
Christ said families would be split by those doing right and those doing wrong but WTS has formal Judicial Committees destroying families via numerous formal renderings of disfellowshipment (severe shunning). 1 Cor 6:1 only says judge "trivial" things as in business, James 2:4-13 calls judging harmful, and Paul says the "majority" (2 Cor 2:6) followed his advice to shun a wrongdoer, meaning a Minority chose not to and yet he nowhere condemns them.
Acts 15:20 says abstain from blood but 1 Sam 14:32-5 says Saul's army ate unBLED meat to not starve and no verses show God not forgiving them. Christ says God also forgave David's eating temple holy bread and that God wants Mercy Not Sacrifice. (Mt 12) The May 22, 1994 Awake tells of 26 JW kids who died without transfusions, and by common sense in massive bleeding as in car wrecks blood expanders won't save lives http://www.ajwrb.org. About 3 JWs die daily earthwide from the unscriptural policy! (Blood On The Altar by David Reed) Yet most normal identical twins transfuse whole blood to each other through a shared placenta and childrens' whole blood is sometimes found in mothers years after birth.
WTS says Christ was likely born about Oct 2, so why ignore counting back 9 months for normal conception or genetic-level birth means he was born in late December? Why insist Christmas is from the pagan Saturnalia when John 10:22-3 says Christ also celebrated the Festival of Dedication or Lights, i.e. Hannukah, which first began Dec 25 but has varied since because lunar-based? Job 1:3, 3:1-3 show Job's kids celebrated birthdays if you read all 3 verses to see day of birth is meant. At Luke 2 angels themselves celebrated Christ's birth. Santa is from Saint Nicholas, an actual red-robed Christian gift-giving elder of the Middle Ages, not a wizard or pagan god. The word Easter may as easily be from the Anglo-Saxon word eastern (Christianity came from East of England) as from the goddess Eastre, the eggs as likely from the Jewish passover egg as from paganry, common sense saying early Christians more likely using eggs and rabbits to symbolize the hope for new life by resurrection than as vesiges of pagan fertility or sex rites!
Halloween came from All Hallows (Holy Ones/Saints) Evening when parents had children dress as saints to encourage them to be good, the normally harmless pranks coming from Ireland where maybe or maybe not taken from pagans even as wedding rings, names of days, months, some Christian names in the Bible like Apollos and Jason also came from pagans. Why does the WTS call compromises holidays that attacked and replaced paganisms especially since Colossians 2:16 says let none judge you about a holiday or Sabbaths? WTS calls a cross a repugnant murder weapon but Paul said boast in it as a symbol of resurrection over death. (Ga 6:14, 1Cor 1:17-18) They say it was a stake but human remains and inscriptions show archaeologists the stauros was a cross not stake, Dr F Zugibe's research shows suffocation would be in minutes if on a stake but in hours if on outstretched cross per Lu 23:44 and Mat 27:45-6, and the word stauros can mean not just stake but cross.
There are countless views on the trinity concept, with almost only the United Pentecostals and a few related groups praying straight to and teaching Jesus is God Almighty (Jehovah) Himself-- the modalism view. Yet WTS says the Trinity is believing Father, Son, Spirit are one "identical" person and falsely say most all Protestant and Catholic churches teach that. The fact is that most all Protestant and Catholic groups accept the trinity idea as being three totally different entities or persons, always from when time started forming one "Godship" just as Romans 1:20 says. (Read It) One illustration is that the Son and Spirit share inherited age, power, knowledge from God remindful of how an acorn may be only one day old but also by its genes share the oak tree's age, capacity and information! Three different entities but one in age, power and knowledge who have always formed one God Almighty or Godship.
Members are told report on each other although the Bible condemns busy-bodying. Nor are regular JWs allowed to read Judicial Committee "sin files" on themselves, many not knowing they exist often with misinformation and kept at Brooklyn's Bethel headquarters even if destroyed locally after seven years. Page 232 in the Insight book shows a picture of the Pay Attention To Yourselves And All The Flock book that elders have but do not allow non-elders to read. Page 302 in the Daniel book and pages 88 and 651 in the Proclaimers book show photos of the Knights Templar swords and the cross-with-crown-and-wreath used by Masons who sometimes use "Theocratic Warfare" tactics to change members' personalities on early WTS literature. Not surprisingly with the pedophile and other scandals, many good JWs have also complained of visual and electronic spying and harassment, including physically! Some old WT books also have the winged sun god Ra on front covers - never a Christian symbol.
Many Jehovah's Witnesses staying JWs are cutting time and money given the WTS which is declared "apostate" for causing divisions besides having endangered children, having the secret U.N. liason etc. By Oct 2002 950+ exJWs had registered for in-person meetings, ( http://exjw.meetup.com/ ), many enjoyed a newsletter from the "Free Christians" fellowship of exJWs and friends which offers unity from love or friendship that surpasses forced sameness of beliefs as well as helps those interested to organize independent Bible Study groups (Col 3:14, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jahchristian/ ). Others have joined moderate Baptists, nondenominationalists etc.
This "Liberator" was written out of concern for JW family members and friends as well as the public's - yours too! Please help out silentlambs.org (1 877-WT-ABUSE) in fighting for the children by making and distributing more copies today!